This interview, conducted by Mark Lamarr, aired on Radio 2's "Beginners Guide To Reggae" on November 7th 2001.

(Opening music: One Step Forward by Max Romeo, Give Praises by the Silvertones)

Mark The reason we're concentrating on Lee Perry today is because we have, I can only call him a true musical legend, not only a great toaster a great singer as well, Dave Barker is today's guest, hi, Dave.

Dave Hi, Mark

Mark You didn't begin your career with Lee Perry did you, but the height of your career was certainely there.

Dave Yes it was. I was first at Coxson Dodd. This guy Tommy Cowan, a very good friend, who was also with a group called the Jamaicans, he introduced me and Glen (Adams) to Coxson. We do some tracks for Coxson Dodd, but Coxson not paying us.

Mark I suspect that "not paying" is something that's going to be repeated throughout the show!

Dave Exactly! We went to Lee "Scratch" Perry, well actually passing by Randy's studio and Scratch had just finished his tour here in England...

Mark This would be the Return Of Django, when he had that hit?

Dave Exactly. Scratch had just come back from here, and the car stopped and all these guys jump out of Scratch car, going into Randy's recording studio, and there was a lot of excitment. So, me and Glen join the crowd and went straight into the recording studio. Now at that time, Scratch put on a tape for Busty Brown to get a vibe from, but Busty could not, don't care how he tried he could just not get a vibe. So Glen now turn to Scratch and say "Scratch, try Dave!" Scratch say "who? Who is Dave?" I says "me man" Him say "well Dave, go step 'round the mic and see what you can do with this track." And as he played the track, and the engineer at that time was called Errol Thompson, and as the track started playing I just came out with (sings) "you made me a prisoner, a prisoner of love." Right through!

Mark It just came from there? Because you'd had records elsewhere, didn't you work with Harry J?

Dave Yes, but it was after that time. I also worked with Miss Pottinger and Duke Reid.

Mark Really?

Dave Yeah man, "Lockjaw" from coast to coast the sound of now!

Mark Of course! Yeah! I thibk Sonia Pottinger is a very under-rated producer, particularly during the rocksteady era, just made some beautiful records; the Gaylads and all those sort of bands.

Dave She is. Yes man, she is a first class producer. As usual it is sad to see quite a few of these people not getting the recognition they should. But it's life.

Mark I think as time goes by, there's a lot more sort of CD product about and stuff, you can easily get that stuff. I think people are noticing.

(track played: Prisoner Of Love by Dave Barker and the Upsetters)

Mark That's relatively unusual in that that is actually soul singing. Soul singing over a reggae beat rather than reggae singing if you know what I mean.

Dave Well, Mark you are right. Because at that time I was really into soul stuff. One of my main inspiration was James Brown.

Mark That's very obvious from that song. Not only is it a song associated with him, but the (JB impression) "Whoaaaow", and all that business. Because most of the people that were recording at that point were much more influenced by Curtis Mayfield, the Motown stuff, but the harmonies much more than the solo singers.

Dave Yes, the Impressions, the Temptations. You know as a small youth I was always into soul stuff. We used to tune in to a station called WINZ (New York), and we used to get most of the Apollo live shows; Otis Redding, BB King and all them guys, Jerry Butler, you know. I was really into the soul stuff, so when I had the opportunity to go in the studio and record my voice over any reggae track, that naturally came forth. And I found out that after Harry recorded a few of those songs most of the reggae artists started to follow me. There was a sort of cross over.

Mark Yeah, 'cos immediately following the rocksteady period, when everything was very smooth and sweet, suddenly that raucous sound come in. What was being played on Jamaican radio at the time.

Dave At the time it was mostly soul stuff and ska. You had guys like Derrick Morgan, Laurel Aitken, Owen Grey and Toots & The Maytals. Alton Ellis.

Mark But was reggae on all the time or was it mainly pop music, or American music.

Dave It was a combination of all good music! From here, also the Beatles. You know Tom Jones? Y'know what I mean. Also Lulu, Englebert (Humperdinck).

Mark It's always so weird whenever I'm in Jamaica and suddenly you hear these things and think "I'm not sure this belongs here". Country's so big. Jim Reeves is always (on the radio), it always drives me mad when I hear Jim Reeves in Jamaica.

Well "Prisoner Of Love" is probably not the sort of sound most people associate you with, people know you much more as a DJ, toaster, than as a singer, so I think we should put on something that's upsetting!

(track played: Shocks Of Mighty)

Mark That was Dave Barker with "Shocks Of Mighty" with the Upsetters. That's basically the band that went on to become the Wailers backing band isn't it?

Dave Yes, you are right. Carlton Barrett, Familyman, and Glen Adams on keyboard, and Reggie on lead guitar.

Mark Wow! But they weren't the first band you worked with?

Dave No. Well, actually at that time Mark, I was fortunate enough to be amongst Bob Marley, Bunny Wailer and Peter Tosh.

Mark Had you know them before the Lee Perry connection, or had that brought that together?

Dave Well I actually used to see them sometimes up by Studio One, Coxson Dodd recording studio, but not to really talk to. Since going to Randy I got involved, became to know each other more.

Mark Whats the story? Because people say at Studio One there were just musicians everywhere, and there were people hnging out on the streets waiting to be called in.

Dave One of the reasons why I used to love going to Studio One, when you enter Studio One the yard is a big yard, then you have the studio. When you enter the yard you have Heptones on that side, Beltones on that side, and each of them have them crowd. And everybody is singing and playing, is like one big carnival. And you have Toots & the Maytals in that corner, and the studio door - as soon as one artist go in, do a music, him come out and "next!" So you find the vibe, the vibe is just buzzing.

Mark but it must have been very competative for everyone.

Dave It was extremely. Because each time an artist go in do a shot - we call it shot- when him come back out him say "nobody can't top this, yunno?" and you see the next artist, "watch me!" Yeah, so it was very competative on a nice vibe. And you see, at that time Mark, when you went into a studio - now this is why a lot of singers then got robbed - because when you went in to the studio you wanted to sing so much you don't even think about earning any money. to which, the producers took full advantage of.

Mark So would you make money from performing live or is there not very much money in that either?

Dave I for one didn't get much live shows then, but guys like the Blues Busters who toured the world, Toots & the Maytals, and Alton Ellis, Derrick Morgan, Derrick Hariott, Chosen Few, Winston "Mr Fix It" Francis, those guys toured a lot. You see then, I was just a youngster coming up on the scene.

Mark But there was no money to be made playing in Jamaica, is that what you're saying?

Dave There was. But when you leave there and come here, you amazed at how much bread you really get.

Mark Because you know there are all those stories about Bob leaving Jamaica in like '67 (actually '66), after he'd had a long run of hits with the Wailers with all those great ska tunes, because he wasn't making a living.

Dave He never actually started to get any money until he linked up with Chris Blackwell.

(track played Double Barrell by Dave & Ansel Collins)

Mark How did you hook up with Ansel in the first place?

Dave Well, actually Winston Riley is the main man where the Techniques are concerened, he came to my home this particular day and asked me if I'm interested to put my voice on that track - well, actually he would like me to put my voice on that track, if I am interested.

Mark So Ansel had done it complete without you, the backing track?

Dave Yes, you see actually Mark, Ansel and Sly Dunbar had made that track. They made both tracks including "Money Spanner", they did both tracks before Winston even knew about them. What I hear is that Ansel and Sly went broke, they were low in pocket so they needed some bread, and Winston happened to come along at Dynamic studio at the right time. Ansel sold him those two tracks for little, and nothing! After that Riley came and asked me if I'm interested to put my voice on, and I said "fine".

We went to Joe Gibbs recording studio, and the track was being played. The track was played and I found it strange because I was used to the uptempo, nice hard hitting stuff, and I couldn't really get in a vibe as such, but Winston brother who was there, he urged me on to get some kind of vibe. He said "Dave man, why don't you think of something big, like James Bond, you know, double O-O-O". I say "yes, alright - I am the magnificent!" Them say "yes man, yes!" "I'm back with a shock of a soul boss, most thundering, storming sounds of soul" and right in, and I never really think much about it.

Mark Were you you recording a lot in those days, was it jumping from studio to studio...

Dave Yes, because I was also at that time was also recording for Lloyd Charmers as well, songs like "the sweeter it is the longer the pains gonna last" and...

Mark So you were jumping from singing to toasting?

Dave Yeah. Songs like (sings) "what can I do, do, do, do" and "follow your heart" for Lloyd Chamers and also at that same time Duke Reid as well "from coast to coast, this is the sound of now". At that time almost everyone of the producers wanted me on their label.

Mark Jamaican music very rarely works exclusively does it, where people work for one producer, they tend to, as soon as someone has a hit they're on every label, on every release for the next 6 months.

Dave True. I did the track called "Double Barrell" Winston Riley paid me 20 dollars, and I forgot about the track and was surprised to hear that the track was bubbling here in the charts.

Mark Was it a hit in Jamaica before?

Dave No it was not, but it played a lot! But it wasn't a hit there.

Mark Was it even in your dreams to have an English hit, never mind a number 1? I can't imagine, apart from maybe Desmond Dekker, I suspect "Israelites" was a number 1 before that , and maybe Millie, it must have been beyond the realms of expectation that you could be that big.

Dave Well Mark I'm gonna tell you something here. I loved singing so much, and I mean at that time, as a youth my life wasn't very a pleasant one, y'know rough times. There's days you don't have any food to eat and things like that. But even though all that was there, when you go into the studio and you step around to that mic, sometimes when you start to sing, it's like you are singing for the whole, entire world. The vibe you getting is like you are actually singing from the top of a mountain, and all your problems, at that particular time, goes. It's like you grow wings and fly away onto a different level.

Mark So all that mattered was getting in there and doing it, that as giving you joy in life.

Dave Exactly. There was no contract signed, no agreement made, so naturally the producers took full advantage.

Mark Surely you got money since then from it? Not just that 20 dollars?

Dave To be truthful I got £1, 000. And that £1, 000, we came to England to tour for about 8 months, and we were actually doing 3 shows per night. You know leave from one spot to the next, all them Top Rank clubs, y'know? And we came here with one set of stage clothes, and it seems this fan followed us from show to show, and one night on stage I am dancing and trying to make some nice moves, and a fan in the audience shout out "Dave! Don't dance too hard. Don't forget it is the only suit you have!"

Mark And at that point surely you could say " this is upsetting!"

Dave (laughs) Yes man!

Mark I want to talk to you about your work with the Wailers, in what many see as their absolute prime period before their cross-over success, and in many ways rock artists., in some respects, when they weredoing all the great stuff with Lee Perry. You actually sang on some of the tracks didn't you?

Dave Yes. A few. The first one was "Don't Let The Sun Catch You Crying", which the harmony voices was of Bob, Bunny and Peter. And after that we did "What A Confusion", that one is me and Bunny Wailer.

Mark Didn't you do some of the backing vocals on some of the (Wailers tracks)...

Dave No. The Wailers as a group, to see them actually recording in the studio was something else. Those guys! Every cut is just one cut. And clean and harmonies pretty, no two cut or three cut, just one cuts. And I was actually in the studio the night when they were doing "Small Axe", and after "Small Axe", Bob came away from the mic, lift him hands up high and say "a lot of people don't want to know of me, Bob Marley, now. But a time gonna come when the whole, entire world wil hear and know of Bob Marley. Some of them even gonna have me picture up in them house!" So said, so done.

Mark Could you tell there was something special going on, that this was a band that might break out of the confines of Jamaican (music)? And actually conquor theworld, they probably are the only reggae really, to conquor the world.

Dave Even their life style was extremely different. These guys hardly spoke y'know! Peter Tosh is walking down the street, walking up the road, you have guys who is coming in the opposite direction, the guys them haffe ease away and mek him pass, 'cos him control the whole part of that road!

Mark Was he unpleasant or just hard to deal with?

Dave No, he wasn't unpleasant but he was very serious. He was not afraid to tell you what he thought.

Mark It does come across in that great documentry Stepping Razor (Red X), a few years ago. You could tell this is a severe human being, this is someone who knows exactly what he wants in life. Bob always seemed a much more - considerate in many ways.

Dave Bob was in a way a very flexible guy. But Bob also had his very serious side. Even last night, me and Winston Francis was talking about Bob, and we all have moods. You'll find today you would meet Bob and he would say "hi Dave", and then tomorrow you see Bob, and Bob just walk past you and dont say a word!

Mark But I can't imagine Peter Tosh ever going " hi Dave!"

Dave No, him a more go (deep voice) "hail I" (laughs)

(track played Small Axe by the Wailers)

Mark Last series when we did this show, virtually every week everyone would choose a Lee Perry or a Bob Marley, or both, track. It's great to have someone here who was actually there. How much did Lee Perry, because it's certainley not the productions where he's throwing everything in. Later on when he built the Black Ark you can just tell , if there's an alarm clock ringing, that's going on the record, and those Wailers tracks are much more subdued to what he was doing at the time. How much was he putting into the session?

Dave A lot! Where the Wailers is concerned, I would say that at times it is on equal, 50-50. But saying that, Bob and Bunny and Peter, they themselves, as a group, were also very creative guys. You would find them record a song for Scratch, and Peter would go by the keyboard and play certain riffs in that song, or get the acoustic and play certain riffs. So it was a combination of talent. Raw talent.

Mark Were they rehearsing the songs, or making them in the studio? Would they have come with finished product or a bit of both?

Dave As far as the Wailers and Scratch is concerned, they would always be writing songs before they would go into the studio. Because at times I would see Bob, them and Scratch. Bob would hum something and Scratch would put two words together, then Bob would come back with two more words, and they would rehearse before they would go into the studio, yeah.

Mark I want to finish with track that I've chosen, it's one of my favourites of yours. I'm not sure if it's your idea or Lee Perry's, because he had actually recorded a version of this by someone else before you, "Blowing In The Wind", the Dylan song.

Dave I don't know about that, I've never heard that song done by anyone else.

Mark Yeah, I think it was a bloke called Burt Walters, I think. He did a version for Lee before you had.

Dave OK. Because the reason why I say this, when I went in the studio, Scratch played the track. That track was made before I even knew about it. So when we went in the studio, Scratch played that track and I just started to sing. If you even check some of the words, some of the words are wrong! (laughs)